[Supras] First gear

Jeff Mohler speedtoys.racing at gmail.com
Thu Jan 3 15:12:13 CST 2008 

For the street there are a # of choices, I'll cover the main four that
are worth looking at.

1)  Porterfield R4-S
The most popular pad that people click on in my store.  They dont have
a hute tip-in response, and when not worked hard, they are really
calm, yet still work very well.  Just not grabby.  As they warm up,
they start to feed back more and more progressively and develop about
.4 peak friction, good till about 900, and capable of a calm track
day, but they will wear faster as you abuse them harder.  They will
never eat rotors, the dust will never -ever- stick to anything, ever.
Performance pads will dust, its the friendly dust you want, not the
killer stuff.  30-40k on a set of pads is common without any track
use...just street use.

A nice way to tune your car, is use the R4-1 pad in the rear.  It is a
VERY high friction pad, but only at low temps.  Perfect for adding
rear bite where you cannot get enough heat to make a traditional
performance pad work well.  This is a HUGE improvement on stock
stopping power if you have a pad like the R4S in front to compliment
it.  If used with a lesser front pad, you will be overbiased in the
rear.

2)  PFC Z-Rated
A very close comparison to the R4S pads, not as popular as it used to
be, and not quite the heat range of the R4S either.  But if youre a
PFC kinda person (its like arguing over motor oils with some people)
this is the pad to have from PFC.

3)  Hawk HPS
This pad is sold at the corner store as a performance pad...ick.  Its
generally only about as good as OEM generic pads on most cars, and on
fast cars..a downgrade from OEM.  But they will not dust, and last
forever.

4)  Hawk HP+
This is the infamous pad that TRD repackaged for themselves.  They
compare to the R4S in stopping power, but dust like mad, and the dust
is toxic waste to your wheels.  Never let it sit, NEVER let it get
wet.  They'll also eat rotors alive.  But they deliver a ton of tip-in
braking, but dont scale up as you drive harder.  Its a twitchy pad on
the street if you dont like grabby pads.


Carbotech:
I havent had any feedback from their panther pads other than they dust
a lot, and wear rotors "some".  Most of these users end up on
Porterfield, and an almost total lack of requests for this is why I
dont sell them at this time.

EBC:
Wont even return my calls or Emails to sell them. Flashy ads, no
content, not a player on the racetrack at all at any level.  But they
do come in many exciting colors!


It is fair to note that Hawk and PFC had a large number of different
compounds, but the only people that purchase them do..because thats
what they are used to.  Ive never been able to find anyone that has
any good or bad feedback on say...Hawk DTC pads..just..they wanted em,
and thats it.  Very rare to see any of the sideline compounds from
those vendors be requested.


For track use:

Small light car:  (Street or race rubber)
I would use the Raybestos ST43 up front, and ST43 or Porterfield R4 in
the rear, depending on budget.

Medium car:  (Street or race rubber)
I would use the Raybestos ST43 up front and ST43 in the rear.  If the
driver was definitely on race rubber and could control more braking
force reliably, then upgrade to ST41 in the front

Heavy car:  (Street or race rubber)
I would use the Raybestos ST41 up front, and the ST42 or 43 in the
rear depending on live axle (ST42) or IRS (ST43).  Live axles have
tramp issues, and the ST43 is too much for them, the ST42 is best for
that use.

Note that I am _heavily_ biased towards the Raybestos Race pads...here is why.

* I have teams running 8-10 FULL weekends a year, use one set of pads,
and then have enough left over to play with in the off season or keep
for spares the next.
* Fade is nonexistent from any review I have asked for or gotten back.
* They do NOT eat rotors, at all..believe it or dont.
* The dust is quite low for a full on race pad, almost not even there
compared to Hawk HT10, PFC01, etc...
* As they age on the car, they get better over time.  Or thats the
feedback.  IMHO, this is because all other pads become less effective
over time as they heat cycle in and out, and as they get thinner heat
up faster..and fade quicker.  Rayebstos do not.

The one thing that the Raybestos pads do not have, is a heavy tip-in
feel when you first hit the brake pedal.  Some people really like and
want that..like in 1st gen RX7s or Spec E30 BMWs.  They run hard, and
brake instantly and then back on the gas.  They dont want to waste
time "setting" the car into heavy braking.  The common choice for
those people is Hawk Blue pads..except they eat rotors, dust
ferrociously, and over heat quickly..hence their "on and immediately
off" use to help corner/rotate the car.  For those that dont need such
a unique feel, the Raybestos is outperforming all comers.

Friction coefficiency rates, peak, for pads mentioned above:
Porterfield R4S:  .45
Porterfield R4:  .53
Porterfield R41:  .62
Hawk HPS:  ~.25-.30
Hawk HP+:  ~.45
Hawk Blue (9012):  .52
Hawk HT10:  .60
PFC-01:  .65
PRC-Z:   ~.40
Ray ST41:  .72
Ray ST42:  .58
Ray ST43:  .62

Note that its important where these peak rates are seen, and that
comes with tuning, which is mostly interacting with the driver and
finding out what he wants more or less of, when.  I probably spend
10-15hrs a month consulting in that fashion with someone, somewhere.


On Jan 3, 2008 12:38 PM, Chris Smyczek <csmyczek at molbiores.com> wrote:
> What can you tell me about your pads on the mk3? Do they bite hard initially
> in a long braking zone (ex.from 140 to 50mph) or does the friction increase
> later and deeper into braking? What pads out there could you compare them
> to? Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: supras-bounces at supras.com [mailto:supras-bounces at supras.com]On
> Behalf Of Jeff Mohler
>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:25 PM
> To: cthommes at adelphia.net
> Cc: car club
> Subject: Re: [Supras] First gear
>
>
> Research would be going to race events..asking what people use, and
> WHY compounds X Y Z works well for them.
>
> For some its tip-in response, others its linearality (is that a
> word?), others its overall bad-ass-ness.
>
>
> Not sure what youre doing..but if its a constant string of 100-0
> stops..you've got the right hardware.   ;)
>
> Probably 90% of the people that end up in my in box have been bitten
> by the case of "everyone else uses X, so I did, and they dont work
> well...".  Whether that's because of old rules in a class that USED to
> manadate a specific pad but dont anymore, or just internet-speak on
> some non-racer forum talking about, racing.  Or just plain old street
> drivers on fancy-pands pads they saw in a full color ad not capable of
> decent friction over 500d.
>
> And as for dual huge BBK..nothing wrong with that at all.  But you'll
> find in racing you _cant do that_ generally, and braking habits and
> technique come into play a lot more than throwing size at the problem.
>  There is always a tradeoff, and yours was ultimately cost.  Most
> street people wont go into this with cost not being a factor.
> Autox'ers and racers have a classing issues.
>
> There are a LOT of underbraked cars in racing, my god.  A 1st gen RX7
> if driven USING the brakes will shatter the rotor in half from the
> edge all the way to the bearing shells..so certain 'adjustments' need
> made, which include loosening up the car a lot..to the point you can
> shake the rear end sideways 1/4" within the suspension bushings.  THEN
> you have a fast car..
>
> Most cars are like that..braking is just going slower.
>
> I'll bet a MK3 can finish a 25hr road race on OEM hardware with pad
> adjustments only..and on one set of pads..and not driving slow either.
>
> I'll also bet that OEM hardware on the right pads used the right way
> (Habits enter in here) can support a 100mi a day journey through
> difficult high speed mountain roads driven like a banshee and still
> get 30-40k out of a set of pads without wearing out any of the
> hardware.
>
>
>
> Thats an extreme example..but..I still agree with what YOU want
> requires a lot of bling...and bling isnt a bad thing, just you cant
> race bling with any reasonable understanding that you'll win anything.
>
> 98% of racing is done on what the OEM hardware is, only the
> fantastically wealthy racers can change any of that hardware out.
>
> On Jan 2, 2008 10:02 AM,  <cthommes at adelphia.net> wrote:
> > So, what is it you qualify as "real research"?
> > I've *personally* been through about 12 different brake setups of various
> scopes on a mk3 over the past 10 years, starting from stock, to different
> pad/rotor upgrades, to mk4 TT fronts, to a JK kit with MK4 rears, and now
> 14" BBK's front and rear, none of them being acceptable IMO until the
> latter.  And yes, aesthetics are a not-insignificant factor... 18" wheels
> over 11" brakes?  No thanks.
> >
> > I guess everyone has their own perspective.  As much as you berate the
> Lexus/550 "hack", it too gets people 90% of what people want as opposed to
> other more costly approaches...
> >
> > -Craig
> >
> >
> > ---- Speedtoys <speedtoys.racing at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > You can do 90% of what people want from a BBK with _just pads_ .
> > > People need to stop trusting the flashy adds in the back of magazines
> > > like Turbo and do some real research.
> > >
> > >
> > > Got brakes?
> > > ======
> > > 25hrs or one season with one pad set is possible.  Save money and pit
> > > time, compromise nothing.  Ask how.
> > > TXT or Tone: 8414546712 at txt.att.net
> > > http://www.speedtoys.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 31, 2007, at 4:30 PM, <cthommes at adelphia.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes, but an improvement over absolute crap then only becomes less
> > > > crap.
> > > >
> > > > Trust me, you won't know a *real* difference unless you get some
> > > > *real* brakes.
> > > >
> > > > -Craig
> > > >
> > > > ---- sprigmo1 <sprigmo1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> Gotta agree with Jeff about the pads!!  I have a set
> > > >> of EBC reds installedon my 92.  Got them from a buddy
> > > >> of mine that decided on Portefields instead.  Imagine
> > > >> That?!?!? LOL
> > > >> The EBC pads were nite and day compared to the
> > > >> MetalMasters I had on. Big improvement! And that was
> > > >> at 380rwhp.  I drove my buddies car with his
> > > >> porterfields and all I can say is, before I put my car
> > > >> back on the road after this rebuild I will own a set
> > > >> front and rear.
> > > >> Malik
> > > >> --- Jeff Mohler <speedtoys.racing at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Ah..but you -can- do a lot with just pads..trust me.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Theres zero magic in rotors, its all pads.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Dec 31, 2007 12:24 PM,  <cthommes at adelphia.net>
> > > >>> wrote:
> >
> > > >>>> LOL!  What brakes did you go with?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Everyone forgets how horrible the brakes are on
> > > >>> these cars, regardless of fancypants
> > > >>> supermetaleramic pads or cross-drilled
> > > >>> this-n-that...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -Craig
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ---- t72pwrd <nholden1 at woh.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>> I ran a -60 upgraded CT for a short period of
> > > >>> time before other issues
> > > >>>>> forced me to part the whole car.  That SOB was a
> > > >>> ton of fun, issues were
> > > >>>>> very similar to what Bernie is describing.
> > > >>> Didn't put many miles on it, but
> > > >>>>> bang for the buck it was a well spent $450.
> > > >>> Can't comment on longevity, but
> > > >>>>> at that time it made more sense than multiple
> > > >>> thousands on a single upgrade.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Like Bernie has said, the car really comes to
> > > >>> life over 3K.  It's really not
> > > >>>>> a bad option to get to 400, again longevity
> > > >>> might be an issue, but it is a
> > > >>>>> very cost effective path.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I went this path and regretted it, but not all
> > > >>> will.  It IS a deadend path
> > > >>>>> but it should get you 400 at the wheels.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I just spent more on brakes than most of our
> > > >>> cars' are worth.  I'm not
> > > >>>>> trying to boast, just want to make it clear that
> > > >>> I have a different goal and
> > > >>>>> chose a different path.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> This path has resulted in an immobile car for 5
> > > >>> years and lots of
> > > >>>>> frustration.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Just think about your goals before you decide
> > > >>> how to get there.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>>> From: "Jeff Mohler" <speedtoys.racing at gmail.com>
> > > >>>>> To: <berniek at technicaldevelop.com>
> > > >>>>> Cc: <Supras at supras.com>; "Walker,Brian (Rich.
> > > >>> Dist)"
> > > >>>>> <Brian.Walker2 at vdot.virginia.gov>
> > > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:11 PM
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Supras] First gear
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The 3K bump is typical for the CT26 housing.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Im waiting for the "broke da turbo"
> > > >>> post..youre asking a lot at 20 psi
> > > >>>>>> on that thing (manifold boost + loss).
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Dec 29, 2007 6:07 PM,
> > > >>> berniek at technicaldevelop.com
> > > >>>>>> <berniek at technicaldevelop.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> Jim:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>    I don't have any idea how much power the
> > > >>> engine is making.  I'll get
> > > >>>>>>> it dynoed after 750-1000 miles.  Not clipping
> > > >>> the turbine but opening up
> > > >>>>>>> the wastegate port instead may be responsible
> > > >>> for the explosive onset of
> > > >>>>>>> torque at 3000 RPM.  But it sometimes will
> > > >>> start to do the same in
> > > >>>>>>> second, although it is just a little tire
> > > >>> hopping at about 4500-5000
> > > >>>>>>> RPM.  Suspension is stock.  This car will be
> > > >>> an INFREQUENT daily driver,
> > > >>>>>>> so with the exception of brakes from Jeff in
> > > >>> the summer, the suspension,
> > > >>>>>>> etc. will stay pretty much as is.  I did
> > > >>> scare myself a couple of
> > > >>>>>>> times.  The GTO was gone 37 years ago.  The
> > > >>> Firebird with the BB Chevy
> > > >>>>>>> has been in wait of exterior restoration for
> > > >>> 10 years (including a
> > > >>>>>>> carburetor rebuild.  Holleys have vertical
> > > >>> cork gaskets that shrink like
> > > >>>>>>> magic.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>    Bernie
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> Supras mailing list
> > > >>>>>>> Supras at supras.com
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> http://supras.com/mailman/listinfo/supras_supras.com
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> Supras mailing list
> > > >>>>>> Supras at supras.com
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> http://supras.com/mailman/listinfo/supras_supras.com
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>> Supras mailing list
> > > >>>>> Supras at supras.com
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>> http://supras.com/mailman/listinfo/supras_supras.com
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Supras mailing list
> > > >>> Supras at supras.com
> > > >>> http://supras.com/mailman/listinfo/supras_supras.com
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>  Malik
> > > >>  It Ain't Eazy Being Me!!!!
> > > >>  92Trbo Supra 367whp
> > > >>  92 Supra Turbo Targa,
> > > >> Blitz peek hold device, Apexi Super AFC, Apexi AVC-R, HKS
> > > >>  Timing Gears,, K&N FIPKE, catch can modification,
> > > >>   Apexi N1 Exhaust, Random Technology High flow
> > > >>  CAT,  AEM UEGO Wideband 02 Unit, CSF
> > > >>  Aluminum 52mm Race radiator, Walbro
> > > >>  Racing Fuel Pump, Aeromotive AFPR,
> > > >>  Horsepower Freaks 700hp custom Supra
> > > >>  intercooler and hardpipes,  Greddy bov, HKS
> > > >>  3000Pipe
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> ________
> > >
> > >
> > > >> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> > > >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> >
> > > >> Supras mailing list
> > > >> Supras at supras.com
> > > >> http://supras.com/mailman/listinfo/supras_supras.com
> > > >
> >
> >
>
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