[Supras] stock brake rotors

[Walker, Brian (Rich. Dist)]

I've ridden on track with someone that did. He didn't know how to
properly check pad thickness before the session and the piston vented
the backing plate!

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mohler [mailto:speedtoys.racing at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:26 PM
To: Walker, Brian (Rich. Dist)
Cc: Khalid Almufti; Supras at supras.com
Subject: Re: [Supras] stock brake rotors

And thats what its all about, managing that energy.

It has to go somewhere, and then MUCH more slowly, dissipate.


Nothing works better than a flat, clean, thick (vs thinner) rotor with a
solid core airsupply.


Anything that compromises those factors such as drilling, slotting, or
being thinner from wear, reduces the efficiency of the braking system.

Heck, thinner PADS heat up more than thick pads, just like rotors too.
   Which boils fluid sooner..etc..etc.   Anybody crossdrilling pads?
;)



On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Walker, Brian (Rich. Dist)
<Brian.Walker2 at vdot.virginia.gov> wrote:
> I'm not arguing that point and never looked at it that way. It would  
> certainly disrupt what the vents are creating (like not running the  
> undercover, it redirects the air that was supposed to be routed 
> through  the radiator)
>
>  I'm thinking of brake power as the force applied. You're right it 
> would  allow more work as in max. brake force application for a longer

> time  before fade/friction drop off.
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Jeff Mohler [mailto:speedtoys.racing at gmail.com]
>
>
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:08 PM
>  To: Walker, Brian (Rich. Dist)
>  Cc: Khalid Almufti; Supras at supras.com
>  Subject: Re: [Supras] stock brake rotors
>
>  Oh yes, but surface area for cooling WRT drilling, hardly any at all,

> because the holes are not receiving that high volume air at a high  
> pressure the same way that the surface area IN the rotor core does.
>
>  Ppl think surface area as a radiator, and that doesnt help anything.
>
>
>  Drilling also reduces important mass that you need to control temps  
> with.
>
>
>  Thickness does aid braking power, because all things being equal, a  
> thicker rotor runs cooler and allows a LONGER usable pad application.
>
>
>
>  On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Walker, Brian (Rich. Dist)  
> <Brian.Walker2 at vdot.virginia.gov> wrote:
>  > But I was a thermo major :)
>  >  Heat transfer is derived from surface area and temp. differential.
>  > Since  you've got huge differences in temp during braking (rotor
vs.
>  > pad face),  there's a lot of heat transferred to the rotor through 
> the
>
>  > outside  surface. Since's there's a much smaller temp difference 
> for  > cooling  (rotor temp vs. air) you need more surface area to 
> cool  > (accomplished by  lots of air across the vented center)  
> You're still  > talking surface area, just not the area that's seen on

> the  outside of
>
>  > the rotor. A reason BBK's have thick rotors, more surface  area for

> > cooling, thickness of the rotor does nothing for braking power.
>  >
>  >  Just wanted to point out that surface area does matter, a lot.
>  >  Brian
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  -----Original Message-----
>  >  From: Jeff Mohler [mailto:speedtoys.racing at gmail.com]
>  >
>  >
>  > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:31 PM  >  To: Walker, Brian (Rich. 
> Dist)  >  Cc: Khalid Almufti; Supras at supras.com  >  Subject: Re: 
> [Supras] stock brake rotors  >  >  Everyone is told that..but..it just

> isnt true.
>  >
>  >  Theyre machined..it makes no difference how the hole got there, 
> the  > outside edge of the hole is where it will split under enough 
> expansion
>
>  > stress.
>  >
>  >
>  >  Now..why are they there??
>  >
>  >  1:  Looks sporty.
>  >  2:  IF theyre there on a true race car, theyre dropping mass that

> > way,  but the braking system is already designed to run cool enough 
> to
>
>  > NOT  FAIL the rotor by cracking.
>  >
>  >  I you look at how airflow moves through a rotor, it becomes 
> instantly
>
>  > clear why holes dont help.
>  >
>  >  If you consider that it takes 3 seconds to get a rotor to 1500d in

> > braking, and maybe a mile to get it down to where it was  > 
> before..."surface area" doesnt aid in cooling on a track whatsoever.
>  >  Its that large volume of airflow moving thru the rotor core.  
> Holes  > reduce the pressure differential at the hub where air enters 
> the rotor
>
>  > core, and drops the CFM that it flows.
>  >
>  >  GO find a thermodynamics major and talk about drilling holes in a

> > rotor...not supraforums.com or some vendor that wants to -sell- you
>  >  this process.   I will be the first to talk you out of it on a
track
>  >  car if you bought rotors from me.
>  >
>  >  GO to a club racing event like SCCA or NASA, find 3 cars out of 
> 500  > with  drilled rotors that were not given to them for free as a
>  >  sponsorship deal.   Bet ya cant.
>  >
>  >
>  >  And..if its so good, why such small holes, and why so few?  (Cuz 
> it  > doesnt work)  >  >  >  On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Walker, 
> Brian (Rich. Dist)  > <Brian.Walker2 at vdot.virginia.gov> wrote:
>  >  > I had been told Porsche casts these features into their rotors. 
> One
>
>  > > would expect that a 6 figure car would have all the best in  >  >

> technology,  is the drilled/slotted feature one of those aesthetic  >

> > things they throw  in?
>  >  >
>  >  >  I'd imagine cost from pad wear isn't of concern on those, maybe

> > it's  > to  aid non-street pads on cars typically used on the
street?
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >  -----Original Message-----
>  >  >  From: Jeff Mohler [mailto:speedtoys.racing at gmail.com]
>  >  >  Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:40 AM  >  To: Walker, Brian
(Rich.
>
>  > Dist)  >  >  > Cc: Khalid Almufti; Supras at supras.com  >  Subject:
Re:
>  > [Supras] stock brake rotors  >  >  On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 7:04 AM,

> > Walker, Brian (Rich. Dist)  > <Brian.Walker2 at vdot.virginia.gov>
wrote:
>  >  >  > I'm no expert but honestly, I don't think there is a 
> performance
>
>  > > gain  >  >  > from those type of rotors. Of course, with slots 
> and  > drilling you  > are  >  >  > increasing surface area slightly, 
> which  > would mean they can shed a  >  >  > > little more heat.
>  >  >  ---
>  >  >  Yes, you lose BRAKING surface area.
>  >  >
>  >  >  Nobody has proved that they make rotors cooler.  The goal is 
> pad  > face  >  >  > temps, which go UP when you lose rotor surface 
> area.
>  >  >
>  >  >  You're also decreasing contact area for the pad  >  slightly,  
> > which  > would mean a little less braking power (we're talking  >  >

> > > very small amounts)  >From the research I've done, pads nowadays  
> >  > don't  >  >  > release a gas layer  like they used to which was 
> the  > main reason  > for  > slotting/drilling, to  remove or scrap 
> that  > layer away. When  > you have  > a drilled/slotted piece  
> (provided  > it's added after  manufacturing vs.
>  >  >  > cast into the piece) you're  also adding areas prone to  
> cracking.
>  >  >  ---
>  >  >  Drilled rotors crack no matter HOW the holes got there if you 
> get
>
>  > > enough  energy into them.  Its how a round piece of metal
expands.
>  >  >  Has anyone ever seen any evidence of a rotor casting WITH
holes?
>  >  >
>  >  >  No..it doesnt exist.
>  >  >
>  >  >  If you put holes in pizza dough, does it stop splitting as you

> > expand  >  >  > it  on the outside edge?  No..thats how a round 
> rotor expands, and
>
>  > > fails  with enough energy thrown at it.
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >  >  for street use, most people use slotted/drilled for street  
> > because  >  >  > > they  look cool. There are some processes out 
> there like cryo  >  > treating  >  >  > that  are supposed to reduce 
> the possibility of  > cracking, I've  > never  > tried  them though.
>  >  >  ---
>  >  >  Nope.   Cryo hardenes the rotor, which adds some lifetime to
it,
>  but
>  >  >  unless the rotor costs like $130, its not worth the $50 to do
it.
>  >  >  It'll still fail the same way..its still steel.
>  >  >
>  >
>