[Supras] Noisy injectors and piston slap
sprigmo1
sprigmo1 at yahoo.com
Tue Dec 11 10:56:08 CST 2007
Thanks Bernie!
Took your advise and went to see the Dr. More meds!
More downtime! Its amazing how you feel pretty good
and the next 24hrs feels like 4 wet blankets are
laying on you.
Still awaiting more test results but he wants to be on
the safe side!
Trying to take advantage of this downtime to go over
rebuild plans. So I'm checking archives and Parts
Sites. I think I have a pretty good idea of what I
need and want for my car. After the rebuild the only
thing that is worrying me is where to get it prperly
tuned. (Thanks Jeff) There are a few places I've
checked there web sites. I guess I'll be trailering
my baby from MD to the most highly reccomended shop
for tuning MK3's.
--- "berniek at technicaldevelop.com"
<berniek at technicaldevelop.com> wrote:
> Malik:
>
> First, let me wish you the best for a lifelong
> recovery. I really
> feel that strides in understanding of cancer are
> really now being made
> on an exponentially increasing basis, even though it
> seems as if little
> happened in that regard for the last 40-50 years.
> Depending upon the
> severity of the surgery, it may take you a little
> while to recover. I
> had a heart attack in 2000, followed one week later
> by triple bypass
> surgery, the first one in my mother's line to
> benefit from newer
> technology (cardiac problems run in that side of the
> family). Recovery
> took about a month to the point where I could START
> to resume a normal
> life, but the entire healing process took about a
> year. Can't run the
> NYC marathon, but otherwise am back to normal.
>
>
> Yes, I too am grateful for this list, this
> medium in which to ask
> questions, offer advice from experiences, get help
> (e.g., Jeff at the
> track) and learn from others. Hope this goes on for
> MkIII owners for
> many years, although I'm somewhat concerned that the
> supply of Japanese
> engines is drying up. Prices have almost doubled
> for JDM GTEs in the
> last two years.
>
>
> Bernie
>
>
> sprigmo1 wrote:
> > Hell of a write-up Bernie!
> > I'm sill in the middle of my rebuild and found
> your
> > whole oil starvation issue and conclusion very
> > insightful.
> > I've had Jeff help me get back on track several
> times
> > as well. Just goes to show how valuable the folks
> on
> > this list are!
> > My motor, head and manifolds are at the machine
> shop
> > as we speak hopefully when my Dr. releases me to
> go
> > 100%,(surgery to remove cancer) I can get back to
> it.
> > Keep up the good work list!
> > Malik
> > --- "berniek at technicaldevelop.com"
> > <berniek at technicaldevelop.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hope the following is helpful to others who
> may
> >> have concerns about
> >> engine noises.
> >>
> >>
> >> In former postings I expressed concern about
> oil
> >> starvation based
> >> upon some really rambunctious driving and noises
> I
> >> was perhaps not aware
> >> of before when the modified JDM engine in my '91
> had
> >> about 100 miles on
> >> it. Also the stock gauge with a new sender read
> >> zero pressure at idle,
> >> covered in next paragraph. Jeff Moller and Pat
> >> Golder were kind enough
> >> to write back to me allaying the starvation
> >> concerns, Jeff particularly
> >> in some detail. I've had an instance before with
> a
> >> good cornering GM
> >> rear sump car where the oil climbed the side of
> the
> >> pan under hard
> >> cornering conditions, as evidenced by noisy
> >> hydraulic lifters. Since
> >> the Supra is a bucket and shim engine, the first
> >> noise which would be
> >> heard under starvation conditions would probably
> be
> >> connecting rod
> >> bearings, a warning which would have come too
> late.
> >>
> >>
> >> A couple of nights ago I measured oil
> pressure
> >> with a pressure gauge
> >> connected to a new oil filter casing (soldered in
> a
> >> section of 1/4"
> >> copper tubing to use with hose and a good gauge)
> and
> >> found that even
> >> with a new sender, the dashboard gauge still
> reads
> >> low by a constant
> >> 20-25 PSI (differential pressure across the
> filter
> >> element is probably
> >> not in excess of 2 PSI at idle with hot 5W-40
> oil,
> >> stating because the
> >> measurement is taken in the casing, upstream of
> the
> >> filter media). That
> >> and other investigation is beginning to prove
> that
> >> noise produced by the
> >> engine does not emanate from the bottom end,
> >> although the first oil
> >> analysis after 400 miles showed 43 PPM lead. The
> >> lab (Blackstone) does
> >> not analyze Antimony, important because lead
> based
> >> babbitt contains 15%
> >> of it for hardness. The lead may be due to
> wearing
> >> of the soft coatings
> >> on the cam journals after tightening up the cap
> >> clearance as stated
> >> informer postings.
> >>
> >>
> >> After installing the regular oil filter again
> >> (Purolator Pure1), I
> >> again started the engine from cold (about 38F in
> the
> >> garage) without
> >> throttle, and listened yet more with a
> stethoscope,
> >> with both the
> >> diaphragm/rod and with just the open hose end
> during
> >> warmup.
> >> Conclusions are as follows:
> >>
> >>
> >> 1. There is no noise from the main or
> >> connecting rod bearings.
> >> There is no noise at all at the bottom flange of
> the
> >> block under any
> >> condition, including teasing the throttle when
> >> warmed up. Ticking and
> >> minor rumbling noises may be heard at the front
> and
> >> rear segments of the
> >> pan, however. I would not trust the stethoscope
> >> diaphragm/rod assembly
> >> to accurately reproduce low frequency sounds the
> way
> >> it is built. Of
> >> course if you remove everything but the hose, you
> >> will hear every sound
> >> which is airborne.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2. During warmup, there is piston slap
> >> particularly on one front
> >> cylinder. #1 was the first one I honed, and may
> >> have increased
> >> clearance a bit too much since the hone stones
> were
> >> new, and spring
> >> tension was apparently too high, although it was
> >> completely backed off.
> >> I used sufurized cutting oil with the stones at
> >> first, but then switched
> >> to machine oil. I recall it did measure a couple
> of
> >> thou more than the
> >> others afterwards, but did not think much of it
> at
> >> the time. Literally
> >> a couple of thou does not seem like much,
> especially
> >> when clearance
> >> ranges for stock pistons in the TSRM are
> considered.
> >> During warmup the
> >> oil pressure is high, opening the piston
> squirters
> >> which probably keeps
> >> piston temperature low, as long as the oil pan
> feels
> >> lower in
> >> temperature than about 120F-130F, the hottest one
> >> can continuously
> >> touch. The noise begins to disappear when the
> oil
> >> pan becomes too hot
> >> to hold my hand on, and is just about entirely
> gone
> >> when the radiator
> >> thermostat opens.
> >>
> >>
> >> 3. Intake valve clearances, when last
> checked
> >> about 120 miles ago,
> >> were a bit on the high side. One was .011",
> whereas
> >> .009" should be the
> >> maximum. The exhausts were all OK below .012".
> I
> >> did refinish all of
> >> the caps to get journal clearances down, but now
> the
> >> intake side has
> >> become a bit noisy. During assembly the soft
> >> coating was gone from 90%
> >> of the exhaust cam but not from the intake.
> Pushing
> >> the engine hard in
> >> back to back WOT runs may have removed the intake
> >> coating. We will see
> >> what the next oil analysis shows, but I'm going
> to
> >> try to find a lab
> >> that does both Antimony and Gallium, Gallium
> being
> >> present in most soft
> >> alloys (softer than babbitt). It is used in
> Wood's
> >> metal with Bismuth,
> >> used to make trick spoons that melt in hot
> coffee.
> >> In any event, my
> >> belief now is that the soft coating is where the
> >> lead came from. The
> >> next oil analysis will tell assuming I find a lab
> >> with comprehensive
> >> enough tests.
> >>
> >>
> >> 4. Noisy injectors? The stock injectors in
> the
> >> '90 made slight
> >> ticking sounds. The NipponDenso 550cc low
> impedance
> >> items in the JDM
> >> are very noisy, almost like valves with twice the
> >> specified clearance.
> >> These injectors were purchased as Greddy items in
> >> sealed bags and were
> >> directly installed, since there was evidence of
> >> Stoddard solvent still
> >> on them (Usually used for test). The engine
> idles
> >> beautifully, although
> >> that is not an ironclad guarantee of all
> injectors
> >> supplying the right
> >> amount of fuel. That consideration not
> >> withstanding, one or two
> >> injectors are unusually noisy, determined by
> >> removing the diaphragm
> >> housing from the stethoscope and listening just
> with
> >> the hose for sounds
> >> in the air. This is not a criticism of the
> >> injectors, just an
> >> observation to be understood.
> >>
> >>
> >> 5. The father of all hellacious sounds in an
> >> engine is the
> >> crankcase. The Supra is no different.
> >>
> >>
> >> a. With the stethoscope earpiece hose
> >> shoved into the
> >> dipstick tube, a subsonic sound at idle was
> >> persistent, which
> >> theoreticially should not exist since a straight
> 6
> >> is in both primary
> >> and secondary balance. In other words, there
> should
> >> be no change in
> >> crankcase volume like in inline 4 has, where a
> >> vertical shaking force
> >> and a hum from the crankcase are seen at twice
> the
> >> RPM, both due to
> >> connecting rod agularity. The low pitched hum in
> >> the Supra was very
> >> intense and became deafening as the speed was
> >> raised. There is a tiny
> >> amount of blowby, as evidenced at the topside oil
> >> filler from a sudden
> >> but short WOT condition from idle while unloaded,
> >> manifested as a couple
> >> of wisps of smoke. It finally occurred to me
> that
> >> the hum might have
> >> been from a crankshaft counterweight windage
> nearest
> >> the dipstick tube.
> >> Otherwise, there is a great deal of clanking
> which
> >> is evident within the
> >> crankcase, decreasing in intensity with engine
> >> speed.
> >>
> >>
> >> b. Essentially the same sounds were heard
> at
> >> the oil fill port
> >> when threading the stethoscope hose into the hose
> >> behind the alternator
> >> which connects to the crankcase. Again, the
> sounds,
> >> aside from the
> >> subsonic eardrum breaker, are believed to be from
> >> piston slap. A
> >> borescope with a 90 degree mirror will be here
> >> shortly to get a real
> >> live view of what is going on inside. I've
> wanted
> >> one as a toy for
> >> years. Now is my excuse.
> >>
> >>
> >> We just replaced the mule car I generally
> take
> >> to work with a 2003
> >> Maxima with the chain V6. It is a very smooth
> and
> >> refined car(automatic
> >> for my wife) although it will accelerate and
> corner
> >> to a good extent.
> >> It has 55K miles, uses no oil, and no engine
> noises
> >> are evident when the
> >> hood is up. But inserting the listening hose in
> the
> >> oil filler produced
> >> sounds almost the same as the Supra. The
> subsonic
> >> component was there
> >> as well, but I'm not sure if the 60 degree VEE or
> >> some other even firing
> >> arrangement like split crankpins (a la GM) allows
> it
> >> to remain in
> >> secondary balance and hence, constant crankcase
> >> volume.
> >>
> >>
> >> In conclusion, the sounds I was first
> concerned
> >> about regarding
> >> possible effects from oil starvation are probably
> >> not due to starvation,
> >> the high oil lead content notwithstanding.
> >>
> >>
> >> As always, comments would be appreciated.
> >> Thanks for the patience
> >> with my sometimes long-winded posts.
> >>
> >>
> >> BernieK
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Supras mailing list
> >> Supras at supras.com
> >>
> http://supras.com/mailman/listinfo/supras_supras.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Malik
> > It Ain't Eazy Being Me!!!!
> > 92Trbo Supra 367whp
> > 92 Supra Turbo Targa,
> > RC Engineering 560 injectors, Blitz peek hold
> > device, Apexi Super AFC, Apexi AVC-R, HKS
> > Timing Gears, Turbonetics CT-26 upgraded
> > turbo, K&N FIPKE, catch can modification,
> > RPS Turbo clutch, Apexi N1 Exhaust, Paisley
> > downpipe, Random Technology High flow
> > CAT, AEM UEGO Wideband 02 Unit, CSF
> > Aluminum 52mm Race radiator, Walbro
> > Racing Fuel Pump, Aeromotive AFPR,
> > Horsepower Freaks 700hp custom Supra
> > intercooler and hardpipes, Greddy bov, HKS
> > 3000Pipe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
> >
> >
> >
>
Malik
It Ain't Eazy Being Me!!!!
92Trbo Supra 367whp
92 Supra Turbo Targa,
RC Engineering 560 injectors, Blitz peek hold
device, Apexi Super AFC, Apexi AVC-R, HKS
Timing Gears, Turbonetics CT-26 upgraded
turbo, K&N FIPKE, catch can modification,
RPS Turbo clutch, Apexi N1 Exhaust, Paisley
downpipe, Random Technology High flow
CAT, AEM UEGO Wideband 02 Unit, CSF
Aluminum 52mm Race radiator, Walbro
Racing Fuel Pump, Aeromotive AFPR,
Horsepower Freaks 700hp custom Supra
intercooler and hardpipes, Greddy bov, HKS
3000Pipe
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
More information about the Supras
mailing list